Nonhuman

[greenstorm]

One of the weirdest experiences I have at this point is watching people be deeply offended by being required to say no. Like, they are asked if they can/will do something, and instead of making a decision based on their priorities and own knowledge of their lives, they do the thing and then are deeply angry, contemptuous, or affronted by the fact that they were asked.

I'm not saying I haven't felt that way in the past -- I certainly have -- but part of adulthood for me has been coming into ownership of my life. I make decisions about it. And the more people ask me, freely and non-coercively, the more info I have on what folks would like and I can then say yes or no.

I get that a lot of folks have damage around saying no if it might inspire an emotion in other people, but that is damage, right?

I get that some people are in coercive situations where they can be physically or financially harmed by saying no, but that isn't the majority of these situations, though I do think some folks autopilot as if the majority of situations are coercive.

I get that different pockets of culture have different ways to negotiate the method of asking, whether it's oblique reference or straight out statement.

I get that different pockets of culture used to have ways of negotiating importance or impact to the people involved, and maybe these methods have decayed with cultural intermixing so folks aren't great at asking if something is kinda nice vs life-changing. I know with Josh he'd originally assumed that my asks were life-changing, so I try to calibrate with him when I do an ask ("this would be nice but if it's a big deal don't worry about it")

I still dislike it very much as a commonplace element of the culture I inhabit and I would like it to go away.

Comments

[chemicalcain]

I have been frustrated by a related experience: people sometimes become quite angry - not just disappointed, angry - when they ask if I can do something and I say I can't. As if them asking was only a courtesy, and by virtue of their request I was obligated to say yes. It's taken a long time for me to build any assertiveness in myself because some of my family are like that. Some of the same people do what you described, assuming requests are actually requirements. Communicating with them is difficult.

[greenstorm]

Yeah, I imagine this exists because there's some kind(s) of real punishment for saying no, especially no doubt for kids who aren't supposed to talk back or refuse, so we're trained into it young and maybe never break free, and for people with less power in a situation generally.

Though I guess I'm also trying to decouple folks being angry at me with me having done something wrong, it's just an emotion (as long as they're not behaving violently) but that's another post!

[chemicalcain]

Oh, yes, I need to work through decoupling that myself. Anger =/= blame.

[yarrowkat]

i have created distance between myself and spaces where the norm is "we asked because we expect this of you, not because you're allowed to say no and have that no received gracefully" (ie, the Abq pagan community at large). at work i handle it more as "if i say yes to this, here is what i need in return," and that has largely worked out -ie, i got a raise for taking on the low-res MFA program.

sometimes it is not possible to create distance and that is frustrating. No is in some ways the kindest word in the English language and we are not taught to use or receive it gracefully (i think the latter is the heart of the problem).

[greenstorm]

Do you feel that's the case at SR? Part of the many inputs that led to this post was thinking of your thing with Rev, who asked you not to announce, and it sounded like you didn't think you could say "that's ridiculous and harmful, I'm sorry you're feeling sidelined but we need to tell people"?

[yarrowkat]

you're not wrong. i sometimes experience significant internal pressure, more rarely external pressure, to say yes to requests from the farm-fam.

in Rev's case, i felt both that his request was foolish and harmful, AND that he was within his rights to ask it. he didn't quite say this, but i know that he asked it because he's concerned that Tristan is going to blow a gasket when he finds out i'm leaving, and rev doesn't want to be around for that. cowardly but very understandable. rev has stepped up his departure plans to have himself fully moved out by Dec 1st, in response to us stating that our firm plan is to discuss the Cazadero plan with everyone no later than the Retreat the first weekend of February, unless a good opportunity presents itself first.

so i didn't feel i could say no, but i also wouldn't say that was my primary response to the situation either - more like frustration about his desire for all the attention to be on him to the possible detriment of others, while simultaneously recognizing that sharing my news with him early had hurt him too. (and also simultaneously recognizing that hurt coming from a place of the covert double-standard we have here for men & women; he can do this and i can't. i'm going to anyway. the men are hurt. insert giant eyeroll.)